About the Byzantines

View previous topic View next topic Go down

About the Byzantines

Post by super7700 on Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 1:04

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I have noticed a few errors with the Byzantine units that need fixing. Firstly, this is just a minor thing, but from what I have read about the Byzantines (which is quite a lot), I haven't seen any mention of 'akritoi'. I believe the correct name for them is 'akritai', though I have seen 'akritae' used as well. Another issue regarding the akritai is their appearance. The error that stands out the most is the western heater shields. If it is possible, you should use a round shield instead with Byzantine patterns rather than western style heraldry (well that's what it looks like). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Byzantines did not use war masks (which appear on the kataphractoi legend and the firethrower). War masks are more of a Slavic and Turkic thing, but not Byzantine. Use a chain mail face covering instead. Lastly, I do like your varangoi unit, but if I were you I'd try making them look something more like this:

Spoiler:

The early varangian guard doesn't look very different to the typical Scandinavian huskarl while the later varangian guard has armour similar to many other Byzantine soldiers of the middle Byzantine period, such as the leather fringes around the waist and shoulders and vambraces, neither of which I see on your more advanced kataphractoi and akritai.

Please forgive me if these are things you have already corrected but I though you might like to make your soldiers a little more historically accurate.

super7700
Edessan Auxilliary
Edessan Auxilliary

Age: 16
Posts: 278
Join date: 2011-11-11

Back to top Go down

Re: About the Byzantines

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 0:27

Thank you very much for your suggestions!

As for the Varangian Guard: I wouldn't say the dissimilarities with your concept art picture are 'errors'. Given that we deal with the Middle Ages, there's a lot of difference in how units would have looked (due to a lack of uniformal dress) and we're left with a lot of artistic freedom, which explains why our Varangian Guard looks slightly different than that of the artist responsible for your picture. With the Varangian Guard, we decided to go for a more Byzantine look, because the full version of K&B will also include the Huskarl as a unit, and I did want a clear level of distinction between Byzantine and Viking units, even if they did look alike in real life. Also, you might have noticed that whenever I texture multiple unique units for the same civ, they always get a degree of similarity, so that Crusader UUs are easily picked out as being Crusader, Byzantine UUs are easily picked out as being Byzantine, and Turk UUs are easily picked out as being Turk. I do have plans to lightly redesign the Varangian Guard, most notably where the hat is concerned (with the current version, there's too little distinction between standard and upgraded textures), and I might take some of your suggestions for details into account, as I can see them working.

As for the Akritoi/Akritai: Our Greek advisor Chris17 has already pointed out the linguistic error in the name, and we will change it.

As for facial masks: As far as I'm aware, the Byzantines did actually use war masks, even if it wasn't to a great extent. Either way, they're a part of what I think of when texturing these Byzantine units. As I've said in the bit about the Varangian Guard, the UUs of each civ get a unique flavour to them, and the main pattern with Byzantine units has been that of brigandine armour (combined with scale armour for upgraded versions), a kettle hat and a face mask. The Firethrower and Byzantine Lord look slightly different, that is because I more strictly followed the pieces of concept art that spangopola drew for those units. Even they have a number of those features though, just to make them more easily recognisable as Byzantine units.


peugeot407

_________________
Synecdoche wrote: Do you only use your wisdom teeth to grind down bone from your kills?



Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Solus Christus. Soli Deo Gloria.




peugeot407
K&B Founder
K&B Founder

Age: 23
Posts: 6135
Join date: 2010-07-22

http://twitter.com/rjfaber91

Back to top Go down

Re: About the Byzantines

Post by super7700 on Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 0:41

Thanks for your quick reply!

The dissimilarities in appearance are errors, since some of the features missing on your soldiers are important features that appeared on the majority of Byzantine soldiers. Especially the leather fringes. So although there was no uniformal dress in the medieval times, except for a few groups of soldiers like the janissaries.

If you are going for a Byzantine appearance for the Varangians, you should try making them, or at least the more advanced upgrades, look more like the High Middle Ages era Varangian.

To my knowledge, no native Byzantines, or very few, were using war masks. Perhaps the only soldiers in Byzantine service who would have worn them would have been some of the Skythikon mercenaries. As for armour, what about lamellar armour and chain mail? They were very popular forms of armour, and I'd argue that mail armour was more commonly used than scale armour by the 12th century.

super7700
Edessan Auxilliary
Edessan Auxilliary

Age: 16
Posts: 278
Join date: 2011-11-11

Back to top Go down

Re: About the Byzantines

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 1:28

The dissimilarities in appearance are errors, since some of the features missing on your soldiers are important features that appeared on the majority of Byzantine soldiers. Especially the leather fringes.

I best go and add some leather fringes then, eh? Razz

As for armour, what about lamellar armour and chain mail? They were very popular forms of armour, and I'd argue that mail armour was more commonly used than scale armour by the 12th century.

Absolutely, but sometimes one has to deviate from historical accuracy to achieve a more unique look of units. The difference between lamellar armour and brigandine armour would be invisible from a game angle, and while scale armour was indeed quite old-fashined even in the High Middle Ages, there won't be any uniqueness if we give every unit chain mail.

Whenever I texture a unit, I have these three criteria, in this order of priority:

1. It must look good
2. It must look unique
3. It must look historically accurate

I do admit that in a quest to make units more unique and good looking, historical accuracy sometimes suffers slightly, but so be it. K&B will not be just a historical encyclopedia (even though we love to be that on some points), it will also be a game, or at least a mod for one.


peugeot407

_________________
Synecdoche wrote: Do you only use your wisdom teeth to grind down bone from your kills?



Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Solus Christus. Soli Deo Gloria.




peugeot407
K&B Founder
K&B Founder

Age: 23
Posts: 6135
Join date: 2010-07-22

http://twitter.com/rjfaber91

Back to top Go down

Re: About the Byzantines

Post by super7700 on Sun 15 Jan 2012 - 2:01

Okay, that sounds good. Thank you for your time! Very Happy

PS: Will you resume Friday Updates?

super7700
Edessan Auxilliary
Edessan Auxilliary

Age: 16
Posts: 278
Join date: 2011-11-11

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum